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on this episode of skeptico alex talks

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with wayne state university medical

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researcher dr donald degrassia about his

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critical look at western science and

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yogic knowledge western culture itself

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is very focused on

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the external world what the senses

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convey to the mind and it just takes it

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all for granted because it has nothing

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to contrast it to it builds the entire

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picture and it misses the complete irony

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sitting in the center of the whole thing

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that it all only exists in the mind

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everything i'm perceiving right now as i

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sit here and talk you you're all only in

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my mind it's all only in my mind right

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and so

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the west

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directed itself outward and the then the

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indian hindu culture directed itself

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inward and that inward exploration

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led to yoga

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stay with us

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers

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and their critics i'm your host alex

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sacaris and on this episode of skeptico

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i have one of those shows that really

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made me appreciate how much i love doing

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skeptico and bringing these great

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interviews to you and the reason i

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enjoyed this show so much was because of

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our guest dr donald degrassie who is

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really so bright and yet is able to take

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his broad range of knowledge about so

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many different things and bring it down

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to a simplified level that really makes

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sense and i have to say i hope you enjoy

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this interview that we're going to do

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that's primarily on comparing and

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contrasting

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western science and yogic

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science i guess you will and other ways

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we have of knowing from other traditions

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which is very interesting topic but what

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you won't hear because i cut it out

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because it was an after conversation

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thing was about the 20 or 30 minutes

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that he took to explain to me what his

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day job is if you will and his research

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into non-linear dynamics and a new way

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of looking at medical research through

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that lens but it reinforced for me what

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i already knew which is that this guy

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has a depth of knowledge about a range

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of different topics that he brings to

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everything that he does and i think

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that's always makes it much more

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exciting for me when i have an

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opportunity to really learn something so

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i hope you enjoy this interview as much

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as i did

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let's get right to it

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today we welcome dr donald degrassia to

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skeptico dr de gracia is an associate

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professor of physiology at wayne state

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university school of medicine in detroit

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where his research on non-linear

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dynamics of cell injury is so far over

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my head that i'm not even going to try

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and get into that we'll just have to ask

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him directly but dr gracia is also a

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brilliant writer and thinker on human

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consciousness and that's the real reason

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i wanted to have him on the show he's

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also written and talked a lot about

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altered states of consciousness

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and in particular the synthesis of and

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well i guess we'd have to say the

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critical examination of western

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scientific thought and yogic and hindu

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knowledge and wisdom and he has a lot of

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very interesting ideas about the

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intersections and i guess

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non-intersections of those two so

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without anything more of me going on dr

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de gracia welcome to skeptico thanks

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again so much for joining me yeah well

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thank you very much alex for having me

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well great you know don your work was

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introduced to me by several listeners on

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skeptica who i really have to thank dr

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john brown and then uh again by

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the the publisher at anomalous press

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who's publishing my book patrick hoyga

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also suggested that you'd be a great

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guest and everyone was right because as

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i dug into your work it was terrific

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it's one of those

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i was reading this book that i want

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everyone to check out if you're at all

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interested after this show it's what is

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science how yoga helps us understand

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science it's one of those books that i

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started reading

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with the idea that i'm going to

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highlight some questions for the show

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and i wound up highlighting practically

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the whole book so i was like wait a

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minute i better just slow down here and

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and ask some basic questions about this

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book and let me just throw in

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so much your work is available

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for free this book you can buy a hard

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copy cover of it but you can also get it

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as a free download from your

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really excellent blog as well

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plain talk about this in other worlds

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where this book that we're going to talk

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about lot about

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first appeared as

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a 10 part blog series is that right

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yeah that's correct

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so let's slow down and go back to

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who you are as you like to say how you

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get your paycheck there at wayne state

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university tell us a little bit about

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your day job if you will

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um well i'm a researcher in cerebral

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ischemia which is stroke and cardiac

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arrest brain damage

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and um having listened to your some of

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your podcasts before coming on i was

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interested to hear that you're

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interested in like cardiac arrest and

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near-death experiences that's a facet of

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the area i work in although my work is

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very biological

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and it studies the mechanisms of how the

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neurons die after a lack of blood flow

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we're going to talk about

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consciousness science and some of the

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ways some of the dramatic ways that it

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kind of conflicts not only with common

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sense but with other schools of thought

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but i think it's interesting to kind of

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juxtapose that with your day job your

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highly regarded highly technically

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demanding day job of being

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in the school of medicine doing research

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at wayne state university does that ever

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strike you that you kind of live this

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double life there

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um well you know part of it has to do

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with the fact that growing up i was a

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big comic book fan right so all

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superheroes have a secret identity i see

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but you know more importantly i think

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you know this is hard to appreciate

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unless you actually have the experience

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but you know that i don't know what is

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it like the thousand hour idea where you

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just keep doing something over and over

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and you get the experience

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and that's what it has been doing

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science for 25 years right in the lab

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every day doing this

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totally mainstream work trying to figure

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out this issue of why did these neurons

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die after lack of blood flow and

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you know over the whole period that i've

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been doing it the one overwhelming

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lesson is that

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it doesn't work more often than it does

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way way more often it doesn't work i

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mean probably 99 of the time i've been

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wrong so you know science is a really

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difficult process you know second

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guessing nature is very very difficult

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and you know having that direct

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experience of playing that game has

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conditioned my thinking very strongly

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you know that might be an interesting

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launching off point because i think it

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it

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kind of brings to the fore

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this whole idea of science

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what is science how do we do science and

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what are some other ways that people

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think about and do science because i

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love some of the things that you have to

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say in the book and one of the most

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basic but at the same time profound

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things and it's obvious once someone

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points it out to you but science means a

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lot of different things to a lot of

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different people

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and at a very simple level you can go

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around the university there at wayne

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state university and you can go ask a

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sociologist what is science and he says

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oh i do science i'll tell you what i do

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over here and then you could go over to

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the physics department you go ask them

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what is science say oh right here bring

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over here i'll show you and then you

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could go as someone in the school of

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medicine and they'd say something

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different

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and

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so science means a lot of different

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things to a lot of different people it

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is not a homogeneous phenomena by any

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stretch of the imagination

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i guess what what struck me and what i'm

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struggling with here is science get gets

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banted around so much the idea of

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science and you do science and science

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versus religion and we should trust

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science and we never stop to think about

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what we really mean

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when we say science and i think you do a

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really nice job of breaking down

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what we do mean what our history of

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science is and then you introduce this

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idea of yogic thought and science

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yeah that's you know that's one of the

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things especially when you start off

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with this idea that it means different

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things to different people and the

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biggest demarcation there is people that

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actually do science versus

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people that are outside of science

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looking in and interpreting what they

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think is going on

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and you know when you're on the inside

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it's just like any other human activity

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you have politics you have the whole

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it's a gaussian distribution you have a

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few really smart people and a whole

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bunch of people that are you know

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leaders and followers basically and you

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know it's not very much different from

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everyday life and in my particular field

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the stroke field you know it's uh it's

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not very successful there are no

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therapies that can stop

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neuron death after stroke you know in

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spite of 40 years of research so in a

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way it's kind of the exact opposite of

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physics where these guys just you know

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built the large hadron collider and and

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confirmed the higgs particle that's been

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hypothesized for 40 years i mean what's

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the difference just in those two cases

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right

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why why is one so outstandingly

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successful and the other one just

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basically a miserable failure you

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touched on something there for a minute

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that you do a really nice job of talking

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about in the book can you explain what

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the demarcation

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problem is

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right yeah see this all stems from so

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there's a whole academic discipline

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called the philosophy of science

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and it is attempting to understand and

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answer the question what is science and

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there's been a few kind of towering

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people that have

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contributed the field and one of them's

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karl popper and he wrote in the 1920s

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and 30s

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and there's a couple important ideas

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that popper came up with one of them is

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this idea of falsification which is a

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very common idea that you find out

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especially amongst the physics people

281
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:54,079
that when you invent a theory the

282
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purpose of it is to not prove that it's

283
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:58,079
true but to prove that it's false

284
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because you can never definitively say

285
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:02,240
that something is true

286
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:03,680
right that's something that hume

287
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:05,600
identified the philosopher david hume

288
00:11:09,509 --> 00:11:07,200
that this thing called his problem of

289
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:09,519
induction that you never know tomorrow

290
00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:12,000
if you'll observe a contrary case

291
00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:14,480
and so popper taking that into account

292
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:17,839
came up with this idea that to um

293
00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:19,680
be successful in our description of the

294
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world what we want to do is to determine

295
00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:23,760
which ideas are false because we can

296
00:11:28,069 --> 00:11:26,320
definitively prove something as false we

297
00:11:29,350 --> 00:11:28,079
can never conclusively prove something

298
00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:29,360
is true

299
00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:31,200
so that's one of the main things that

300
00:11:35,829 --> 00:11:33,040
popper is known for but he also invented

301
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:35,839
this idea of the demarcation problem

302
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:37,360
how do you distinguish science from

303
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:38,880
other activities

304
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:41,279
that humans do and and the falsification

305
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:44,240
criteria was his answer to that so

306
00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:45,279
science

307
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:47,279
is an approach to knowledge that seeks

308
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:49,600
to prove ideas are false

309
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,720
period

310
00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:52,320
it never it's an open-ended thing it

311
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:55,120
never ends and what you do nicely in the

312
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,800
book is kind of

313
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,120
take that a little bit further than

314
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:01,360
popper or you kind of step back and you

315
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:04,800
say hey isn't this demarcation problem

316
00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:07,200
really what we've been fighting over

317
00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:09,040
about science it's been the little

318
00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:10,959
skirmish that's in the background that

319
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:14,240
really is a much bigger deal and that is

320
00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:16,160
somebody comes along and says well

321
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:18,079
that's science and somebody else comes

322
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:19,279
along and says well no that's not

323
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,440
science and it's really how do we

324
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:23,519
measure what is science and what isn't

325
00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:25,040
science and one of the ways we can do

326
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,279
that i said well science affects the

327
00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:29,839
world and we come up with these radical

328
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:31,600
ideas that have these power and

329
00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:33,360
influence and we make atomic bombs and

330
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:34,800
we make cell phones and we make all

331
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:36,480
these other things and then somebody

332
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:39,040
else comes along and says yeah but this

333
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:41,360
guy did this fantastic movie this piece

334
00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:43,279
of art and it totally changed people's

335
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:44,720
minds and that changed the world so

336
00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:47,120
maybe art and science how would you draw

337
00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:49,200
the difference or politics like you say

338
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:51,279
or religion has changed the world

339
00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:52,399
exactly

340
00:12:55,829 --> 00:12:54,000
if you notice in the book i never

341
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,839
actually explicitly draw that

342
00:12:59,110 --> 00:12:57,360
distinction because i don't believe

343
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:59,120
there is such a thing i think science is

344
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:00,480
a form of art

345
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:02,639
not any different than any other form of

346
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:04,880
art that humans do the type of science

347
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:06,320
we have in our culture right now at

348
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:07,440
least

349
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:09,440
it has the properties that i talk about

350
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:10,639
in the book

351
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:12,880
and the reason you know it's kind of i

352
00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:14,959
guess to back out a little bit to give

353
00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:16,639
some sense of what i you know yes what

354
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:18,639
am i trying to do in this and you know i

355
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:20,480
was thinking about how could i explain

356
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:22,959
something like that and

357
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:24,560
you know the issue is you only know

358
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,720
something by contrast to something else

359
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:28,720
it's just the way that our brain and our

360
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:31,920
mind and our senses work and so

361
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,560
you know like for one a kind of

362
00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:36,399
obvious example we walk around in the

363
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,480
air all the time right but there's

364
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:40,560
that's we're always in that environment

365
00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:42,720
and so it seems like nothing to us

366
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:44,959
even though we're like fish and water

367
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:46,240
right there we're moving through a

368
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:47,360
medium

369
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:50,160
we never experience the vacuum

370
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:52,000
right so the the air is actually

371
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:54,079
invisible to our awareness

372
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:55,440
and you know and

373
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:57,040
analogically

374
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,199
we have this science permeating our

375
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:01,279
culture in the same way and we just what

376
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:03,680
do we have to compare it to

377
00:14:08,550 --> 00:14:05,920
nothing and so it's kind of invisible in

378
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:08,560
a certain sense and so

379
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:10,160
you know as i've been learning the ideas

380
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:11,360
of yoga

381
00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:13,360
it's clear that they

382
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,480
overlap substantially and you know what

383
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:18,240
i try to do in the book is show that in

384
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:20,480
many respects the yogic ideas are much

385
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:22,880
grander much broader

386
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:25,760
in their scope and and um account for

387
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:28,480
things that our western sciences can't

388
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:30,560
taken in the very broadest historical

389
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:32,480
sense looking since the you know

390
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,880
evolution of of science from the days of

391
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:36,639
newton and leibniz

392
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:38,880
and and if people are tempted to think

393
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:41,279
that that sounds very new-agey or

394
00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:42,959
something like that

395
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:45,680
you really break it down in a very

396
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:48,639
concrete way that's hard to dismiss and

397
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:51,519
get past and that contrast that you do

398
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:53,120
and you point out that there's these

399
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:56,160
british christians that come over to

400
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:58,480
this continent of india and they get

401
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:00,959
there and they have these certain ideas

402
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:03,519
and what you do is compare and contrast

403
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:05,600
this with the ideas that they encounter

404
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:08,000
and you say hey well wait a minute

405
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:09,680
here's what the people of the continent

406
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:12,480
of india had that they didn't

407
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:14,720
exactly you have to put yourself 300

408
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:16,560
years ago 400 years ago there were no

409
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,279
cars there was no electricity people had

410
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:21,360
candles they drove in wooden ships

411
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,440
across the ocean the british obviously

412
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:25,680
were militarily superior

413
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:26,800
and

414
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:28,480
you know they had their christian ideas

415
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:30,000
that they had inherited from medieval

416
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:32,480
europe they had their renaissance ideas

417
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,480
that they inherited from the greeks and

418
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:35,519
romans

419
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:37,279
many of which we know we now know are

420
00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:38,880
wrong right so what are some of the ways

421
00:15:43,750 --> 00:15:39,760
that

422
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:43,760
thought was really

423
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:46,320
much further advanced right so consider

424
00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:47,680
that you know like i say in the book

425
00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:49,360
that christians believed the world was

426
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,759
six thousand years old so it had been

427
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:53,519
calculated that was something from that

428
00:15:57,509 --> 00:15:54,480
era

429
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:57,519
and based on biblical you know logic of

430
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:59,519
the bible think you know

431
00:16:03,189 --> 00:16:00,959
i don't want to go into that story but

432
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:03,199
you know do you go to the indian culture

433
00:16:06,829 --> 00:16:04,560
and here they are saying that the

434
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:06,839
universe is 300 trillion years

435
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,600
old right i mean it's just

436
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:11,279
the british mind could not understand

437
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:12,880
that at the time

438
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:15,680
and there that's just one example right

439
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,279
they also believed that the universe

440
00:16:20,710 --> 00:16:18,959
began in this highly condensed state

441
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:20,720
that they called the brahmanda

442
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,160
right the egg that began the universe

443
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,480
and that idea didn't become anything in

444
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:28,399
the west until the 1930s and we called

445
00:16:31,749 --> 00:16:30,160
the big bang today

446
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,759
right and if you look at the ideas

447
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:33,600
they're very very similar

448
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:35,920
and if we go over to mathematics as you

449
00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:39,040
do you point out hey take zero and take

450
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:42,720
infinity two ideas that we really can't

451
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:45,600
do any kind of math other than kind of

452
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:48,880
roman numeral stuff without and they had

453
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:50,959
these ideas they were integral part of

454
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:53,040
their you know it's it's hard to refer

455
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:55,199
to hindu ideas as religious that's a

456
00:16:58,790 --> 00:16:56,959
mistake we make in the west it's not a

457
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,800
religion it's closer to

458
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:00,800
hinduism itself is closer to what we

459
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:03,519
think of as philosophy but yoga is much

460
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,959
closer to what we think of as science

461
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:06,959
because yoga is methods and procedures

462
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,640
just like sciences

463
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:10,880
and hinduism as a whole is a bunch of

464
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:13,520
different philosophical viewpoints

465
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:15,520
and yeah and so

466
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:18,240
you know how could the again i i don't

467
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:19,919
know what else to say i mean who's the

468
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:22,640
barbarian in this picture right these

469
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:24,799
people that think the universe is 6 000

470
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:27,039
years old and

471
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:28,799
have these very primitive notions about

472
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:30,799
the nature of reality and then the

473
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,960
hindus who have these just unbelievably

474
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:34,880
sophisticated ideas that the british

475
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:36,960
can't even understand you know one of

476
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:39,120
the the main point i really try to make

477
00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:41,440
in the book is this idea of the gunas

478
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:43,919
which is just a central idea the more

479
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:46,080
i've come to understand hindu and yogic

480
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:47,280
thought

481
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,520
the more i've come to see that and and

482
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:51,039
not only that but the more i've come to

483
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:52,720
understand western science and where

484
00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:54,000
it's going

485
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:56,000
this idea of the gunas i mean it's

486
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:58,080
thousands and thousands of years old by

487
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:59,919
the time patanjali codified it in the

488
00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:01,760
yoga sutras it was already an ancient

489
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:02,960
idea

490
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,000
and

491
00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:06,160
you know the idea of gunas is the idea

492
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:08,559
that everything that we perceive

493
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:10,720
is just patterns of movement

494
00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:12,559
there is no substance

495
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:13,600
period

496
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:15,679
reality the stuff that that's probably

497
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:17,679
the biggest contrast between the hindu

498
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:19,600
mind and the western mind is that the

499
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:22,000
western mind believes in reality but the

500
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:23,440
hindu doesn't

501
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:25,679
what we call reality the solid real

502
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:28,799
world rocks the stars the planet our our

503
00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:31,280
bodies the hindu just sees as something

504
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:33,360
achen to the wind it's a pattern of

505
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:34,320
movement

506
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:35,360
and that's it

507
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:37,200
it just moves it flows like a river it's

508
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:39,200
a flowing a movement it has it's not

509
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:40,880
made of anything it's just a pattern of

510
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:44,000
movement and so let's say we wanted to

511
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,280
look at that question in a serious way

512
00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:49,360
right because we don't we just dismiss

513
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,799
that we say oh my gosh that's so

514
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,640
ridiculous let's just move on but let's

515
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:54,320
say we really want to break that down in

516
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,679
the way that you're breaking it down

517
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:56,880
here and say

518
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,559
how would we really

519
00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:00,240
logically

520
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,440
determine

521
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:03,520
which worldview

522
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,679
maybe stands up to

523
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:07,760
our experience to our shared experience

524
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:10,000
to logic and i think that immediately

525
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:13,440
gets us into this idea of consciousness

526
00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:15,440
which you talk so much about and do so

527
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:18,320
much work in and that is so so let's

528
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:21,200
break it down and talk about

529
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:24,880
the yogic understanding of consciousness

530
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,720
so this idea you asked you know the

531
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:28,559
hindu world view versus the western

532
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:30,080
world view with respect to this idea of

533
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,600
the gooness and that everything is just

534
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:32,960
patterns of movement well i mean that's

535
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:35,520
what einstein is famous for is

536
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,840
just describing that energy matter is

537
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:39,679
energy up to einstein they had been a

538
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:42,880
dualism they were seen as two opposite a

539
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:44,880
dichotomy but then he showed they were

540
00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:46,960
interconvertible and that changed the

541
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:48,960
world right

542
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,720
and so that was the beginning of the

543
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:52,960
west coming to appreciate this ancient

544
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:55,919
ancient hindu idea and you know it has

545
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:58,240
only progressed further so you know yeah

546
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:00,320
but but hold on because don i mean it

547
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:03,039
hasn't it hasn't right i mean

548
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,280
that's one of the great paradoxes of the

549
00:20:08,549 --> 00:20:07,520
time that we live in is we can say and

550
00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:08,559
then

551
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,080
einstein came along and he changed the

552
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:12,559
world but no he didn't change the world

553
00:20:19,070 --> 00:20:15,520
in a way i mean the predominant paradigm

554
00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:19,080
of science is still this kind of

555
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:22,080
materialistic you are a biological robot

556
00:20:26,150 --> 00:20:24,400
you are your brain kind of thing well

557
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:26,160
this brings us back to

558
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:27,760
science is different things to different

559
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:29,360
people so you know the movers and

560
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:31,039
shakers that are using these ideas are

561
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:32,640
the ones that gave us the computers that

562
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,240
are letting us communicate right now

563
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:36,159
they give us the cell phones

564
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:37,840
in other words physicists and engineers

565
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:40,480
that utilize these ideas gps they

566
00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:42,159
utilize these ideas in a practical

567
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:43,360
fashion

568
00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:44,960
and you know i brought up the question

569
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:46,799
earlier why have those guys been so

570
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:48,720
successful and for example a lot of

571
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:51,120
biomedical stuff that i'm you know that

572
00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:52,880
my own work is directly involved and has

573
00:20:57,029 --> 00:20:54,400
not been successful is because we don't

574
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:57,039
use the same logic those guys use

575
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:59,039
right so there is

576
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:00,080
uh i don't want to use the word

577
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:02,000
demarcation but it is a demarcation

578
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:03,120
there's

579
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:05,039
that's the heterogeneity of science it

580
00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:07,440
is not a constant thing but whole fields

581
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:09,760
use completely different methodologies

582
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:11,760
and they're just less successful than

583
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:14,000
other fields that use more successful

584
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:15,440
methodologies

585
00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:17,520
so anyway i just

586
00:21:22,230 --> 00:21:19,840
you're correct i agree with you that the

587
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:22,240
ideas have been very slow to diffuse

588
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:24,080
throughout the general culture

589
00:21:27,029 --> 00:21:25,840
right but they they are there and

590
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:27,039
they're what underlie all this

591
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,960
technological revolution that has you

592
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:31,120
know characterized the 20th century you

593
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:33,039
know i i see that and i don't want to

594
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:35,760
get too far off into this but i see that

595
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:38,720
but i see also the the

596
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:41,200
strong resistance to it still in in

597
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:44,000
every corner of science that you look i

598
00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:45,840
mean you know even we want to kind of

599
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:48,080
pretend that the quantum physicists are

600
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,640
way out on the edge but they're not only

601
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:52,320
some of them are some of them are

602
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:53,760
willing to take it to the next level and

603
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:54,960
the other just doing the shut up and

604
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:58,080
calculate thing which is which is what

605
00:22:01,590 --> 00:21:59,679
so much of science does when they

606
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:01,600
encounter this stuff that doesn't fit

607
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:03,520
inside their paradigm they're like shut

608
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:04,960
up and calculate churn out the

609
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:07,280
technology that's a very serious issue

610
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:08,799
too and i mean that falls squarely in

611
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:10,880
the philosophy of science and why why

612
00:22:13,909 --> 00:22:12,559
would that thing come to pass and in a

613
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:13,919
way that's almost like an immune

614
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:16,480
response of our society and our culture

615
00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:18,960
right to the implications of what these

616
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:21,039
ideas imply right so you have people

617
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:23,200
like feynman i on my blog i wrote an

618
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:24,960
article about my ambivalent feelings

619
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:27,200
towards feynman right obviously the man

620
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,120
was a genius he he revolutionized

621
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:31,200
quantum mechanics but if you listen to

622
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,679
him talk philosophically he i you know i

623
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:35,360
apologized all feynman fans but he

624
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,360
sounds like a right

625
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:39,200
he didn't study it he doesn't know it he

626
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:41,919
has no sophistication or subtlety

627
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:44,400
at that level of thinking and

628
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:46,000
these are the people so it's like we've

629
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:49,440
given kids not guns atom bombs right

630
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,280
we've given a bunch of kids atom bombs

631
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:52,880
and they have this tremendous power that

632
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:54,880
they manipulate and

633
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:57,280
you know i i in my mind the image of

634
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:59,039
atlantis comes to mind right the whole

635
00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:01,039
myth of atlantis that's what this all

636
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:03,120
seems like it's converging towards

637
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:05,520
sometimes when i think about it

638
00:23:08,549 --> 00:23:07,120
but i agree i don't want to go off on

639
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:08,559
that too much that could be a whole

640
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:11,280
topic in and of itself but so to you

641
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:12,960
know return back to your question about

642
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:15,760
consciousness and and indian thought

643
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:17,600
should we go back to that then let's do

644
00:23:21,909 --> 00:23:20,080
that but let's also tie it back into

645
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:21,919
what we're just talking about because as

646
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:23,840
i was reading in what is science your

647
00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:26,880
book i saw so many parallels between

648
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:30,000
that and the state we are in currently

649
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:32,880
with our understanding of consciousness

650
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:35,039
and the absurdity

651
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:39,600
of what we assert about consciousness in

652
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:41,919
western thought in western science and

653
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:45,520
and even you know to to again not to put

654
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:47,440
down anybody but even somebody like

655
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:49,840
david chalmers who's wonderfully you

656
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:52,400
know revolutionized consciousness

657
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:54,640
research and this hard problem but then

658
00:23:59,909 --> 00:23:56,559
you just read it you go what what what

659
00:24:02,950 --> 00:23:59,919
is all this hand wringing about what is

660
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,960
obvious and that is that consciousness

661
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:05,039
is obviously not

662
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:08,320
just brain function it's obviously more

663
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:11,279
than that why do we stumble on such

664
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:13,840
basic ideas in the same way that i think

665
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:15,200
you know we look at the

666
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:16,880
the british christians they're going hey

667
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:19,200
the the world is 6 000 years old don't

668
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:20,880
tell me any different it's it's i mean

669
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,200
it was an absurd idea i think

670
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:25,440
even for their scientists at the time

671
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:27,360
yet it was something that we cling to

672
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:28,720
and i kind of get that same feeling

673
00:24:33,029 --> 00:24:30,080
about consciousness i mean that we're

674
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:33,039
just clinging to just an obviously

675
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,559
absurd idea

676
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:37,039
so isn't david chalmers the bat guy

677
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:39,520
yeah i think it is it's yeah did you get

678
00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:41,120
my little graphic batman spanking

679
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:42,080
science

680
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:44,400
oh i didn't see that in the book yeah i

681
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:46,080
mean again it's this idea of having

682
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:47,679
something to contrast to and if you

683
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:50,559
don't it's invisible right so we

684
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,159
you know the west has always been

685
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:54,480
characterized by just being

686
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:56,240
outwardly directed

687
00:25:03,190 --> 00:24:59,679
you know completely sensory based it you

688
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:03,200
know the understanding of mental events

689
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:05,679
and i say this being well aware of the

690
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,400
2000 years of western philosophy

691
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:10,640
you know i mean plato plato actually

692
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:12,480
said the right things and and people

693
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:14,000
just didn't get what he was saying or

694
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:15,840
something you know i mean it's it's

695
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:19,200
something about the western tradition

696
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:21,600
that likes to rule and have power and

697
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:23,760
control the world the world that seems

698
00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:25,600
to be outside of the body

699
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:27,919
and that that is what has you know led

700
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:30,799
to this very large dichotomy and so

701
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:32,960
you know western culture itself is very

702
00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:35,600
focused on

703
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:37,760
the external world what the senses

704
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,400
convey to the mind and it just takes it

705
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:42,080
all for granted because it has nothing

706
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,240
to contrast it to it builds the entire

707
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:46,640
picture and it misses the complete irony

708
00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:48,159
sitting in the center of the whole thing

709
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:50,720
that it all only exists in the mind

710
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:51,760
right

711
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:56,159
now as i sit here and talk you you're

712
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:58,159
all only in my mind it's all only in my

713
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:00,480
mind right and so you know there's like

714
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:03,440
solapism that was like one western

715
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:05,600
approach to it that oh it's only all in

716
00:26:09,029 --> 00:26:07,440
your mind and then that's obviously

717
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:09,039
absurd because the guy comes up and

718
00:26:12,149 --> 00:26:11,279
punches you in the face

719
00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:12,159
right

720
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:14,000
and so the west has always had a

721
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:15,360
superficial

722
00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:16,880
approach to this

723
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:20,000
you know and i cited um jay la connie in

724
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:22,000
my book and a talk he gives that i

725
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:24,400
thought was very insightful talking

726
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:27,679
about the demographics of india right he

727
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:30,080
says in just one little line in a kind

728
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:32,159
of blow-off way he says i don't know

729
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,440
what it was it was the weather or

730
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:35,840
something but we went inward right and

731
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,400
it was it was the climate they had they

732
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,320
were rich they had a bountiful land they

733
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:42,080
didn't have to struggle for existence

734
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:43,679
like people in europe did where it was

735
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:46,480
cold and they had farm and bad land and

736
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:48,640
stuff in india

737
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:51,200
more stuff died just naturally than what

738
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,400
grew in europe

739
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:54,640
right and then they had all this excess

740
00:26:58,549 --> 00:26:56,720
and so the land was so rich and so

741
00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:58,559
bountiful that the people there could

742
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:00,240
have the leisure

743
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:03,279
to just sit and develop yoga

744
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:06,960
right and so what they did is instead of

745
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:09,520
being preoccupied with the external

746
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:10,880
world

747
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:13,200
again citing jay's ideas because he says

748
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:15,279
it very clearly that

749
00:27:18,789 --> 00:27:17,120
they just said well what is it that

750
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,799
allows me to perceive the external world

751
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,480
in the first place what is this external

752
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,799
world that like is in my mind what is

753
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:24,720
this what is my mind

754
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:26,240
how does all this stuff work how does

755
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:29,200
this all fit together and by they they

756
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:30,880
literally went in a different direction

757
00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:32,559
than the west the west

758
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,720
directed itself outward and the then the

759
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:36,640
indian hindu culture directed itself

760
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,720
inward and that inward exploration

761
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:42,480
led to yoga

762
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:47,840
led to this interesting kind of paradox

763
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:50,400
that you arrive at in the book

764
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:53,679
about hanging in the middle we have the

765
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:56,480
external world which suggests to us over

766
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:59,039
and over again that that is a reality we

767
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:01,200
have our purely internal world that we

768
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:03,440
get some glimpses of as a reality and

769
00:28:09,269 --> 00:28:06,720
where we wind up in is trying to keep a

770
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:09,279
foot in both these worlds and we wind up

771
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:11,520
hanging in the middle what is that all

772
00:28:15,430 --> 00:28:14,000
about well that's kind of my

773
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:15,440
tongue-in-cheek

774
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:16,399
cynical

775
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:19,120
irreverent characterization of western

776
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:20,960
philosophy right because i mean you can

777
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,960
look at since the rise of modern times

778
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:25,039
in the 1600s

779
00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:26,799
you know we've had materialism and we've

780
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:28,480
had idealism one of the things i do in

781
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:30,159
the book in a kind of comical way is

782
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:32,240
paint that as a war and in a way it is

783
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,080
it's an intellectual war that is

784
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,960
constantly waged and one in certain

785
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:38,640
areas of history one side gains

786
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:40,159
dominance over the other we happen to

787
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:42,399
live in an idealistic time right now

788
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:44,000
right that's what post-modern is

789
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:45,600
everything's in our mind we make it all

790
00:28:49,029 --> 00:28:47,440
up and even though

791
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:49,039
average people don't really understand

792
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:50,880
it it's what drives politics go look at

793
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:53,440
the philosophy behind the neocons right

794
00:28:59,190 --> 00:28:56,159
it's all perception that's why media

795
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,200
and you know politicians can just lie so

796
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,279
easily now because they're conditioned

797
00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:02,960
to believe that it's just what people

798
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,039
believe that's what makes reality that's

799
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,360
that's an idealistic viewpoint that just

800
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,600
sees everything in the mind and so

801
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:11,600
you know the east has

802
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:13,520
obviously we're aware that there's an

803
00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:15,039
external world and we have an internal

804
00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:17,200
world of mental states and like i say in

805
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:19,200
the book you know the world itself

806
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:21,520
presents resistance to our thoughts

807
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:23,360
right we think but the world presents

808
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:25,520
resistance to our thoughts and

809
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,159
when you let that resistive aspect gain

810
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:30,320
dominance that's materialism then you

811
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:32,080
come to the conclusion that the world

812
00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:34,159
somehow creates our mind

813
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:37,120
or you know if you follow the path that

814
00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:39,360
you know george barkley started back in

815
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:40,960
the time of newton

816
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:43,279
uh it's all in our mind to begin with

817
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:44,960
our mind is what creates the world we

818
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:47,600
live in right everything our most humans

819
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:49,600
entire world is not the natural world at

820
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:51,520
all we live in a human created world our

821
00:29:56,630 --> 00:29:54,720
house the movies we watch the stores we

822
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:56,640
shop in well you know people don't even

823
00:30:01,110 --> 00:29:59,120
know how to grow food right

824
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:01,120
so everything that most people

825
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:03,039
experience is the human created world

826
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:06,240
that's all just in the mind it's george

827
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:09,760
barkley writ large across our lives

828
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:11,679
and so you know you look at the west and

829
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:13,919
it's kind of stuck in a way in this

830
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:16,240
dualism this this oscillation back and

831
00:30:21,510 --> 00:30:18,880
forth between these two viewpoints

832
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:21,520
and you know again i mean i grew up in

833
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,679
this society too it's very dissatisfying

834
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:25,600
it makes people very unhappy people in

835
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:27,200
our culture are not happy there's not

836
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:29,200
like any kind of harmony that underlies

837
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:32,080
this tension that kind of is at the

838
00:30:36,149 --> 00:30:34,159
center of our culture

839
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:36,159
and so like anybody else probably like

840
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:37,679
you you know you start to explore and

841
00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:39,600
try to try to figure out what the hell's

842
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:41,600
going on in the world and and through

843
00:30:45,909 --> 00:30:43,679
the different avenues of my explorations

844
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,919
i come across hinduism

845
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:47,600
and to

846
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:50,320
learn their ideas and see the contrast

847
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:53,039
right and then that's that's really a

848
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:54,720
lot of what this book is attempting to

849
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:57,600
express is to be like holy wow you know

850
00:31:02,710 --> 00:30:59,440
it's amazing that

851
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:02,720
you can have a viewpoint where all of

852
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:04,799
this comes into harmony is what it

853
00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:07,279
amounts to and it's not new ag at all in

854
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,200
fact it's highly consistent with our

855
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:11,279
modern sciences

856
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:13,279
well it's consistent up to a point isn't

857
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:15,760
it i mean it's consistent if you look at

858
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:18,240
things in a in a

859
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,760
you're right i got to be careful so you

860
00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:21,760
know in the book i define science as

861
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:23,679
that which leads to the release of power

862
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:26,240
in the universe right and so anything

863
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:27,840
that doesn't do that i don't consider

864
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:30,240
science which includes you know in a way

865
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:32,880
the stuff i do at work even you know

866
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:34,399
don't talk about that for a minute

867
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:37,039
because you have some interesting ideas

868
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:38,559
about power

869
00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:39,760
and about

870
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:40,880
thought

871
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,159
is power knowledge is power

872
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:46,720
and at the surface i love the way you

873
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:48,000
break it down because it becomes

874
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:49,840
self-evident when you talk about it

875
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:51,600
equals mc squared

876
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:53,120
knowledge is power you have that

877
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:55,440
knowledge you operationalize it with

878
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,159
technology you wind up with power again

879
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:00,080
you have a demarcation problem well

880
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:01,840
where was the

881
00:32:08,549 --> 00:32:06,240
science was it in the idea well

882
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,559
go ahead the the whole idea stems from

883
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,080
my understanding of the hindu concepts

884
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:12,880
and again reading the yoga right i mean

885
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,880
like i say in the book i've you know we

886
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:16,159
obviously haven't talked about this at

887
00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:18,640
this point but um you know i've had

888
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:20,159
experiences with altered states of

889
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,960
consciousness they exist they're real

890
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:24,240
um

891
00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:26,880
people that know about it have a

892
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,880
wide variety of opinions about it but

893
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,559
you know that that's something that's a

894
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:33,200
whole different discussion in itself

895
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:35,360
but that's the basis of yoga is those

896
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:38,320
types of experiences and

897
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:40,000
um

898
00:32:45,509 --> 00:32:43,440
you know so having had them it it

899
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:45,519
i take what they say seriously is what

900
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:47,039
it amounts to

901
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:48,399
and

902
00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:50,720
in their teachings like i talk about in

903
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,279
the book the basic

904
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:55,200
principle of existence they call the

905
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:58,799
shiva shakti tatva right and it's this

906
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,120
this separation that there's this idea

907
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:03,840
brahman of infinity this like perfectly

908
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:06,880
harmonious integration of everythingness

909
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,480
i mean it's it's

910
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:10,480
the concept is awe-inspiring if you

911
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:13,200
really understand what it means and

912
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:15,840
within this this awe-inspiring wholeness

913
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:18,640
of of existence or whatever you know i i

914
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:20,640
don't want to go off on what brahman you

915
00:33:24,789 --> 00:33:22,080
know how to characterize brahman but

916
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:24,799
there's this process that occurs that is

917
00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:26,480
this separation

918
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:28,640
that occurs in brahman that is the

919
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,360
genesis of what we call reality in the

920
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:33,360
west you know of the manifested

921
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:35,360
existence and then shiva is

922
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:38,480
consciousness and shakti is power

923
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:42,320
and they are two poles of the same thing

924
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:44,240
right it's this thing that that art

925
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:46,960
artificially separates within itself

926
00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:48,399
and so they're indelibly and

927
00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:50,480
interrelated from the genesis of the

928
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:53,120
universe according to hindu thought

929
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:55,840
and so you know i mean

930
00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:58,399
to me it's just a really incredible idea

931
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,519
because it explains why we can have

932
00:34:05,830 --> 00:34:03,600
thoughts and and you know

933
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:05,840
why the the mere thought equals mc

934
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,480
square can blow up a city

935
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:10,320
right it's not a mere thought obviously

936
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:11,679
there's some connection there's some

937
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:13,679
intimate connection and the hindu ideas

938
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:14,879
explain

939
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:16,800
this connection it's very convoluted

940
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:19,440
very contorted you know the shiva shakti

941
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:22,720
very far from our personal realities

942
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:23,919
but

943
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:26,399
there's a direct connection

944
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,280
yeah

945
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:29,679
let's talk about that connection a

946
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:32,320
little bit because i think what you do

947
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:35,760
a nice job of in the book is talk about

948
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:37,119
a little point that you made right at

949
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,119
the beginning which is that

950
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:41,679
your launching off point for this

951
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:44,960
exploration of yogic thought is

952
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:46,480
some of the stuff that we just talked

953
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:49,040
about which is hey if they're right

954
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:51,520
about this and i can feel confident

955
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:52,720
they're right about this because

956
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:54,240
everything i know

957
00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:56,879
tells me you know that this is true and

958
00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:58,000
this is

959
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:00,160
and that this understanding of

960
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:03,200
consciousness let's say is more

961
00:35:06,310 --> 00:35:04,640
accurate than

962
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:06,320
the western idea

963
00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:07,280
as

964
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:10,640
you liken it to your drilling yourself

965
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:14,160
with the 10 000 hours in biology or in

966
00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:16,560
chemistry where you just

967
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:19,280
build on what you know and then at some

968
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:22,079
point you gain confidence that

969
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:25,280
even what you don't know but you know is

970
00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:26,880
out there will be revealed to you and

971
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:29,200
will be true because everything you've

972
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:30,880
learned up to this point has been true

973
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:33,280
so you start with biology 101 and then

974
00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:36,000
you go to 20201 and 301 and you go you

975
00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:37,680
know i'm probably going to agree with

976
00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:40,400
what they have in biology 401 and you

977
00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:42,960
take a similar path with yoga right yes

978
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:45,119
exactly yeah and even that you know the

979
00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:46,000
the

980
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,839
that approach that i have personally in

981
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:50,160
science came from me just playing music

982
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:51,760
right as a teenager i started playing

983
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:53,359
guitar and i didn't know how to play

984
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:54,560
guitar but there were other people

985
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:56,079
around me that played guitar i could see

986
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,960
him play guitar and through that process

987
00:36:01,510 --> 00:36:00,480
i learned that if you practice you get

988
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:01,520
better

989
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:02,880
right and so by the time i went to

990
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:04,320
college and decided i wanted to be a

991
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:06,800
scientist i just i already knew that

992
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:07,839
trick

993
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,680
and so you know

994
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:11,520
the problem with the altered states of

995
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:13,280
consciousness though is you can't see

996
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:15,520
anybody doing it right so unless you

997
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:18,640
have some initial experiences yourself

998
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:19,599
then

999
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:20,560
you know

1000
00:36:25,190 --> 00:36:22,240
it's not going to make any sense at all

1001
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:25,200
you have no basis whatsoever to apply

1002
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:27,920
the the practice logic to altered states

1003
00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:30,240
of consciousness but whatever my genetic

1004
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:33,920
makeup or my my experience that i've had

1005
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:35,839
i had these things spontaneously as a

1006
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,599
child you know and eventually as i got

1007
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:39,680
older and read about things and

1008
00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:41,280
and learn to understand these

1009
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:43,440
experiences as altered states of

1010
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:45,280
consciousness

1011
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:46,800
and then you know

1012
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:48,480
i kept building on it building on it and

1013
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:49,920
i'm i'm at a certain level of

1014
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:52,640
proficiency you know the the angle that

1015
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:54,880
i've came into this through is what is

1016
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:56,400
called lucid dreaming or astral

1017
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,760
projection

1018
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:59,520
but it's still a very definite altered

1019
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:01,200
state of consciousness and it turns out

1020
00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:03,520
that the ability to do that that

1021
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:06,400
technique is what the yogis call prada

1022
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,640
yahara the two techniques are almost

1023
00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:10,400
identical it's just the end to which

1024
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,839
they're applied

1025
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:13,920
is is vastly different

1026
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:15,359
and so

1027
00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:17,760
yeah that's that's really the the the

1028
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:20,800
concrete anchor i have that allows me to

1029
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:22,720
say okay yeah i actually know how to do

1030
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:24,240
prada yahara

1031
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:26,400
and i've done it and

1032
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:28,079
i just have never applied it the way the

1033
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,880
yogis do it and then they describe what

1034
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:32,640
what happens you know you following

1035
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:35,280
their methodology and and yeah it's just

1036
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:36,880
very logical that what they're

1037
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:38,400
describing

1038
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,720
is the way that it would unfold

1039
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:42,000
and let's tell people because you've

1040
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:44,480
written a very practical matter of fact

1041
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:46,800
book and again it's available as a free

1042
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:50,960
download called the do obe as in do out

1043
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,280
of body experience where you lay out and

1044
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:55,440
talk about not only your experiences but

1045
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:57,839
kind of a step-by-step approach for how

1046
00:38:01,829 --> 00:38:00,320
someone can gain success with lucid

1047
00:38:04,069 --> 00:38:01,839
dreaming

1048
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,079
and with astral protection out-of-body

1049
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:06,480
experience and then you also mix that

1050
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:09,520
with some philosophical uh ideas and

1051
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:11,680
thoughts about that one of which i think

1052
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:13,760
i want to bring up now because i it was

1053
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:15,760
again just a small point but it was a

1054
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:18,880
real shift for me when you talk about

1055
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,320
even the term

1056
00:38:23,990 --> 00:38:22,320
altered state of consciousness is

1057
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:24,000
somewhat of a misnomer that takes us in

1058
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:26,400
the wrong direction because it's an

1059
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:28,400
alternative state of consciousness it's

1060
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:30,560
a different state of consciousness with

1061
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:31,680
different

1062
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:34,320
uh

1063
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:36,079
that has a whole different way of

1064
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:38,079
understanding things and we always want

1065
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:39,520
to pull it back and go well what does

1066
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:41,359
that mean from our perspective and maybe

1067
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,520
that's the wrong way of looking at it

1068
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:45,680
do you want to expound on that

1069
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:48,400
well i mean it's like

1070
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:50,960
how can i explain it you know um

1071
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,880
soccer is not popular in america right

1072
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:54,480
but it's very popular around the rest of

1073
00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:56,240
the world you know and they call

1074
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:57,599
football

1075
00:39:01,990 --> 00:38:59,680
it's just what their cultures do people

1076
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:02,000
grow up with the expectation they train

1077
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:03,599
obviously we have soccer here but you

1078
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:04,400
know

1079
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,119
it's a it's a crude analogy but the idea

1080
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:09,040
is that we live in a culture that

1081
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:11,440
doesn't cultivate these experiences we

1082
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:13,599
have the spontaneous manifestations of

1083
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:16,160
them we call them dreaming right but

1084
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,839
right but we don't understand it i mean

1085
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:19,280
the d we don't have a length as you

1086
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:20,480
point out we don't really have a very

1087
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:22,720
good language for it exactly i was just

1088
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:24,720
going to say the best we have is carl

1089
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:27,920
jung and who who reads him anymore right

1090
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:30,079
and he was quite you know obscure in his

1091
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,680
own way i mean come

1092
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,839
the thing about the yogic

1093
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,760
information and their their teachings is

1094
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:37,920
it's just very like you know simple in

1095
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:39,359
black and white what they're saying it's

1096
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:41,119
not obscure it's not

1097
00:39:43,990 --> 00:39:43,200
like highly intellectual it's designed

1098
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:44,000
for

1099
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:46,000
anybody that's ready to learn that stuff

1100
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:47,680
it's just right there for you to learn

1101
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,839
it you know there's kind of certain

1102
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:51,359
prerequisites but

1103
00:39:56,230 --> 00:39:54,480
i i i think that's the really important

1104
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:56,240
point to recognize about this idea of

1105
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:57,680
altered states of consciousness is we

1106
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:59,200
grow up in a culture that just simply

1107
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:01,119
doesn't cultivate them and has no basis

1108
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:03,359
to understand them and again it's this

1109
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:05,839
issue of contrast you look at the hindu

1110
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,880
thinking

1111
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:08,640
where altered states of consciousness

1112
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:12,000
are revered right it's like the core

1113
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,520
um thing

1114
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:16,079
in their culture to to do yoga it's part

1115
00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:17,839
of their culture right there's the whole

1116
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:19,760
idea of you know being the child then

1117
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,440
being the householder and then being the

1118
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:23,520
responsible social member and then at

1119
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:24,640
the end of your life you got in the

1120
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:26,480
forest and you meditate in preparation

1121
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:27,760
for dying

1122
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,040
right that's it's literally a part of

1123
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:31,200
their culture right and so it's

1124
00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:33,440
integrated it's taken seriously there's

1125
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:35,359
a very rich interpretation that

1126
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:36,880
surrounds it

1127
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:38,480
and you know in comparison we're

1128
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,040
literally blind on those levels

1129
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:43,359
and so yeah you know we can call them

1130
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,960
altered states of consciousness they are

1131
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:46,400
they're different than the one that

1132
00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:48,480
we're in right now but they have a very

1133
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:50,560
nice categorization of how these things

1134
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:52,800
work how they're related they have very

1135
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:55,119
distinct methods of how to get yourself

1136
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:56,880
from one to the other

1137
00:41:02,150 --> 00:41:00,079
and what the implications of it all are

1138
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:02,160
and you've also taken that in another

1139
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:04,160
controversial direction but a direction

1140
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:06,319
that you have to go in for anyone who's

1141
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:08,880
at all interested in this and that is

1142
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:10,000
the

1143
00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:14,800
of psychedelics

1144
00:41:20,069 --> 00:41:18,000
and altered states of consciousness what

1145
00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:20,079
was your what were some of your your

1146
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,680
thinking in in doing that and what was

1147
00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:25,680
some of the things that you found out in

1148
00:41:30,950 --> 00:41:28,880
exploring those connections

1149
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:30,960
um well that's you know it's

1150
00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:33,119
controversial again you know one of the

1151
00:41:36,470 --> 00:41:34,319
interesting things back when the

1152
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:36,480
internet first started out

1153
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:39,119
and somehow i got charles tart's email

1154
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,359
right so this was probably 1993 or

1155
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:43,200
something 94.

1156
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:44,880
and i thought oh my god i'm going to

1157
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:46,880
email this guy right because i read his

1158
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:49,040
book altered states it influenced me

1159
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:50,560
like i influenced so many other people

1160
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:52,800
i'm thinking if there's one question i

1161
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:55,359
could ask charles tart what would it be

1162
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:57,040
and so i wrote him and i asked him just

1163
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,040
one question why were

1164
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:02,640
uh psychedelic drugs made illegal

1165
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:04,560
and and he wrote me back and he said

1166
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:06,160
because it allows people to think for

1167
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:07,440
themselves and they don't need the

1168
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:12,309
and so you know

1169
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:13,680
i thought that was really really

1170
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,240
interesting and and it's true too you

1171
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:18,319
know it does experimenting with those

1172
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,800
chemicals does something to your mind

1173
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:22,960
and you know i've got a whole website

1174
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,640
about this the link between what

1175
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:26,400
entendre yoga is called kundalini

1176
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,760
awakening and the effects of psychedelic

1177
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:30,960
and

1178
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:33,040
you know because in here in the west we

1179
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:34,400
have like

1180
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:36,319
such primitive ideas about the nature of

1181
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:37,839
the mind and consciousness the whole

1182
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:39,760
idea of what the effect of psychedelics

1183
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:42,160
are is just completely over our head

1184
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,920
and you know it's interesting if you go

1185
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:45,359
back and read the literature from the

1186
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:47,359
50s and 60s there was some really

1187
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:49,920
serious really good stuff going on and

1188
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:52,560
people were starting to get a handle on

1189
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:54,000
it and it was moving things in a

1190
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:56,160
direction and and you know that's when

1191
00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:58,240
like the beatles went to india and

1192
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:00,640
started learning yoga right there's

1193
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:02,880
obviously a connection there

1194
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:05,280
but the whole thing got like wiped out

1195
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,599
right the powers that be in the western

1196
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,520
world just like stomp that fire out

1197
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:11,440
before it got out of control

1198
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:13,440
and so here we are you know and now you

1199
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,960
see it's kind of coming back a little

1200
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,480
bit there's the work that's been done

1201
00:43:21,829 --> 00:43:18,480
with dmt i can't think of the fellow's

1202
00:43:21,839 --> 00:43:24,150
uh

1203
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:26,150
strossman right and you know his stuff's

1204
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:27,920
now all available on the internet and he

1205
00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:29,520
he got um

1206
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:31,280
some funding and did that work with dmt

1207
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,960
and it it's interesting to look at

1208
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:34,480
because it's exactly the same as the way

1209
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,240
the psychedelic literature went it just

1210
00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:38,240
immediately blows open the western world

1211
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:39,040
view

1212
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,960
all right those people the the the you

1213
00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:42,720
can see the video it's up on youtube i

1214
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:44,960
believe right now yeah the interviews

1215
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:46,240
with the people that had these

1216
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:47,760
experiences

1217
00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:48,800
so

1218
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:55,599
there from the 1960s when

1219
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:58,000
they first were doing lsd experiments

1220
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:59,359
and they did them with these

1221
00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:00,640
they're great videos because there's

1222
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:01,760
these very

1223
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:02,800
straight

1224
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:05,520
looking you know 1950s guys with the

1225
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:08,079
button-up shirts and the ties just

1226
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:10,560
tripping and talking about these

1227
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,160
amazing experiences and uh

1228
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:16,880
and expansion of consciousness they talk

1229
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:18,880
about increased these guys are engineers

1230
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,000
and they talk about just these

1231
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:22,560
breakthroughs that they had in in

1232
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:24,560
understanding of problems and stuff like

1233
00:44:26,950 --> 00:44:25,920
that so

1234
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:26,960
i

1235
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:31,200
that um

1236
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,960
the psychedelic drugs came on the scene

1237
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:34,640
shortly after the atomic bomb was

1238
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:36,640
invented and that it was somehow god's

1239
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:38,160
will that they both appear at the same

1240
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:38,960
time

1241
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:40,079
right because they like totally

1242
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:41,760
counterbalance each other out and

1243
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:43,839
they're of the same magnitude

1244
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:45,200
well you know the other thing i think is

1245
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:46,640
interesting when you're talking about

1246
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:48,720
tarte's response to your to your

1247
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:49,680
question

1248
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:50,480
it's

1249
00:44:54,069 --> 00:44:52,079
in in the west and in particular in the

1250
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:54,079
united states we think of ourselves as

1251
00:44:59,589 --> 00:44:57,200
being so free free freedom and yet you

1252
00:45:01,990 --> 00:44:59,599
know if you are not free

1253
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,000
to control your consciousness or

1254
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,160
manipulate your consciousness in any way

1255
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:06,800
you see i mean isn't that the core

1256
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:08,720
fundamental freedom that you could ever

1257
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,920
have is hey i am free to

1258
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:13,680
have my consciousness and manipulate it

1259
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:15,839
any way i want and yeah i gave my two

1260
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:17,520
cents worth about freedom in the book i

1261
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:20,400
mean i'm so steeped in yogic thought now

1262
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:22,560
that i don't the idea makes no sense to

1263
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,560
me whatsoever it literally makes no

1264
00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:26,160
sense i mean we're in a world of

1265
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:28,000
relative existence where everything

1266
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:29,520
conditions everything else and there's

1267
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,839
absolutely no freedom i mean every every

1268
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:33,680
i'm a highly deterministic person

1269
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:34,960
actually

1270
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,800
it's very very complex it's

1271
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,720
extraordinarily complex and these

1272
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:40,800
psychedelic experiences open you up to

1273
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:43,040
the subtle complexities involved in it

1274
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,920
but

1275
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:45,440
ultimately

1276
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:47,359
yeah this idea of freedom is just

1277
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:50,000
another ghost in our mind that uh draws

1278
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,440
it's like a carrot that draws people

1279
00:45:55,829 --> 00:45:53,760
forward into experience yeah we just

1280
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:55,839
have to be kind of careful with that i

1281
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:57,839
think because

1282
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:01,359
it's at a level that is so beyond

1283
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:04,400
what we experience on a day-to-day basis

1284
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:06,480
what we experience even in these

1285
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:09,760
extended consciousness realms that uh

1286
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:11,119
people achieve

1287
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:12,800
that i mean if we're really going to

1288
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:15,200
look at it from a sociological

1289
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:17,040
standpoint or from an anthropological

1290
00:46:21,510 --> 00:46:19,520
standpoint we say there's a lot of

1291
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:21,520
ground there's a lot of

1292
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:24,560
territory to traverse before we get to

1293
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:27,760
that ultimate determinism where there's

1294
00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:29,440
just this kind of unified consciousness

1295
00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:32,160
it's all going up i mean we have

1296
00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:35,920
afterlife experiences we have past lives

1297
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:38,000
we have a lot of other stuff that we

1298
00:46:42,309 --> 00:46:40,319
haven't processed before we get to that

1299
00:46:44,309 --> 00:46:42,319
kind of you know i agree it would be a

1300
00:46:46,309 --> 00:46:44,319
whole discussion about that i don't want

1301
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:46,319
to go into that it would definitely be a

1302
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:48,160
whole discussion and

1303
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:50,800
but yeah it's very complex that's why i

1304
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:52,880
added that in there yeah

1305
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:54,880
you know where i thought we we might end

1306
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:57,599
because you do have such a unique

1307
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,400
perspective and you've you've given

1308
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:02,400
you're at a vantage point that is is

1309
00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:05,119
unique too in terms of your deeply

1310
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:07,599
knowledgeable about science but then you

1311
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:10,640
also have this broader view of where

1312
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:12,480
things might be heading from a

1313
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,240
consciousness perspective i was

1314
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:17,280
wondering what are your thoughts on

1315
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:18,960
parapsychology

1316
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:21,680
and kind of this western approach to

1317
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:24,720
kind of pound it into

1318
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:26,480
this deeper understanding of

1319
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:27,920
consciousness

1320
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:29,680
and and i want to twist around and say

1321
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:32,800
is there a way that they can do that

1322
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:34,079
along the lines that they've been

1323
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:36,160
heading because you hinted at you know

1324
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:37,680
you got to take a different path you

1325
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:40,160
know and that some science is able to

1326
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:42,160
make that leap over and say you know

1327
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,440
forget all that you know we're going to

1328
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:45,359
take a quantum view of things and they

1329
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,160
leap forward and others are

1330
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:50,720
stagnant and stay with this kind of very

1331
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:52,800
materialistic the world is out there and

1332
00:47:57,430 --> 00:47:54,400
i'm in here and i have to measure it out

1333
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:57,440
there can parapsychology

1334
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,040
succeed with that kind of materialistic

1335
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:03,119
or at least dualistic kind of view of

1336
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:05,280
things and if they can how would they do

1337
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:06,960
it how would you

1338
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:09,119
how would you do gansfeld experiments

1339
00:48:14,470 --> 00:48:11,200
how would you do the experiments at the

1340
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:14,480
old pear lab at princeton how can they

1341
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:15,599
find this

1342
00:48:20,550 --> 00:48:18,319
yeah my short answer is no it's it's

1343
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:20,560
it's a fantasy it's not going to work

1344
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:22,480
yeah i i have another free online book

1345
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:24,640
if i can you know blow the corn on that

1346
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:25,920
it's called beyond the physical and

1347
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:27,680
beyond the physical one of the chapters

1348
00:48:31,990 --> 00:48:29,440
a very wordy book i wrote it when i was

1349
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:32,000
much younger and it rambles on and on

1350
00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:33,520
but it's got a lot of interesting things

1351
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:34,880
and one of them there's a discussion

1352
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:37,359
about that exact issue and

1353
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,680
the base the starting point is how can

1354
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:41,839
you talk about a quote-unquote anomalous

1355
00:48:45,030 --> 00:48:43,200
phenomena when we don't even know how

1356
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:45,040
our own mind works

1357
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,200
right how how is it i actually

1358
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:49,680
understand you what is that that i'm

1359
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,440
understanding what is that process how

1360
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:53,280
do we communicate right what does it

1361
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:54,720
mean for me to see the world what are

1362
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:56,640
colors right the qualia problem we don't

1363
00:48:59,190 --> 00:48:57,920
even know how to solve the qualia

1364
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:59,200
problem

1365
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,800
and and you're gonna go trying to do

1366
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,640
that stuff i mean talk about putting the

1367
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:04,480
cart before the horse

1368
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:06,640
right and so that's that's the angle

1369
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:10,240
that i've come at this at and so

1370
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:12,960
to me and the kind of the a broader way

1371
00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:15,040
to um

1372
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:16,720
context to have this and is something

1373
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:18,640
that you hear mystical people say often

1374
00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:19,680
is that

1375
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:22,400
the most awe-inspiring mysteries are the

1376
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:24,319
most common mundane things in our

1377
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:27,119
everyday lives and right

1378
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:29,599
you know our very act of being aware of

1379
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,520
the world the thing that we do every day

1380
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:33,920
when we get up we have no idea how that

1381
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:36,079
works we totally take it for granted we

1382
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:38,880
just go doing it we're completely

1383
00:49:43,510 --> 00:49:40,480
instinctive about it we're no different

1384
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:43,520
than uh the way an animal is or like a

1385
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:45,200
spider building a web but the way a

1386
00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:47,040
spider just mindlessly builds a web we

1387
00:49:50,069 --> 00:49:48,559
just mindlessly go around the world

1388
00:49:52,150 --> 00:49:50,079
conscious of it

1389
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:52,160
right how does that even happen let's

1390
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,640
let's deal with that first

1391
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:56,640
and then you know these other things

1392
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:58,400
what will happen is they'll just

1393
00:50:01,829 --> 00:49:59,760
evaporate

1394
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:01,839
okay the once you start to answer these

1395
00:50:05,990 --> 00:50:04,160
questions like from the angle i'm

1396
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:06,000
suggesting is that

1397
00:50:10,390 --> 00:50:08,319
you're going to be led into yoga which

1398
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:10,400
will very systematically walk you into

1399
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:13,119
the other worlds the other worlds exist

1400
00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:14,800
period if you don't believe them like

1401
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:16,079
they say in the book if you don't

1402
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:18,240
believe them go do retail sales or go

1403
00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:19,760
work in a factory you have no right

1404
00:50:23,349 --> 00:50:21,760
being in this realm

1405
00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:23,359
right if you want to pretend you're an

1406
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:24,960
intellectual you need to be ready to

1407
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,559
deal with this stuff

1408
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,400
and these things are real

1409
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:30,559
and you know

1410
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:32,800
just because we're in a barbaric culture

1411
00:50:36,549 --> 00:50:34,480
doesn't mean every human that's ever

1412
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:36,559
existed shares this barbarity you can go

1413
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:37,920
learn this stuff

1414
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:40,559
and experience it for yourself and and

1415
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:41,359
see

1416
00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:43,280
and it's very complicated i mean it's

1417
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:45,760
not trivial right the site this practice

1418
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:47,680
mentality is very very important you

1419
00:50:51,109 --> 00:50:49,200
have to approach this stuff like you

1420
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:51,119
would you know seriously like you would

1421
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:52,640
learning a musical instrument or

1422
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,119
learning mathematics or anything right

1423
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,599
it's not a joke at all

1424
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:58,960
and that's the so there's this kind of

1425
00:51:02,950 --> 00:51:01,440
weird glibness that that surrounds it

1426
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:02,960
and you got to like just be prepared

1427
00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:05,200
that that you can't even begin to

1428
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:06,960
approach it that way and

1429
00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:08,319
you know and then when you bring it back

1430
00:51:13,030 --> 00:51:11,440
to parapsychology i mean on

1431
00:51:15,190 --> 00:51:13,040
there's always an ambivalence that i

1432
00:51:17,829 --> 00:51:15,200
feel towards these things because you

1433
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:17,839
know there's some degree of sincerity to

1434
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:19,280
these people that undertake these

1435
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:21,280
efforts but then

1436
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:22,720
you know it's like the principle of the

1437
00:51:25,829 --> 00:51:24,480
lever you want to put

1438
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:25,839
your effort where you're going to get

1439
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:27,359
the best return

1440
00:51:32,230 --> 00:51:30,000
and taking the methods of statistics

1441
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:32,240
that you know fischer invented and

1442
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,559
trying to like quantify statistical

1443
00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:36,960
events is not the best place to put the

1444
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:39,440
lever by a long shot i told you my

1445
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:41,040
opinion of where to put the lever let's

1446
00:51:45,030 --> 00:51:42,800
figure out what the mind and

1447
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:45,040
consciousness are in the first place how

1448
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:47,599
they link to the brain and the body

1449
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,480
once you start to go down that path then

1450
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,319
you're gonna like naturally go into

1451
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:54,640
these other so-called anomalous areas

1452
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:55,680
and see that they're actually very

1453
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:57,200
natural they're not anomalous at all

1454
00:52:01,829 --> 00:51:59,920
they're very natural and

1455
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:01,839
so you know i've i've read through the

1456
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:04,640
parapsychology literature and it it

1457
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:06,640
basically has the same problem that my

1458
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,440
field has this reliance on statistics in

1459
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:11,599
an inappropriate way

1460
00:52:14,870 --> 00:52:13,119
you know that's that's really the big

1461
00:52:16,230 --> 00:52:14,880
difference i i kind of alluded to this

1462
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:16,240
earlier like why are physicists

1463
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:18,640
successful but biomedicine is not right

1464
00:52:25,910 --> 00:52:20,000
there's no

1465
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:25,920
heart attack or you know cardiac arrest

1466
00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:28,160
stroke none of that right you can't stop

1467
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:29,920
those processes once they've wrecked

1468
00:52:35,990 --> 00:52:33,359
their damage and and it has to do with

1469
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,000
the mindset right so it's a statistical

1470
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:38,160
mindset that's what a clinical trial is

1471
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:40,400
is a statistical design

1472
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:41,839
it doesn't try to understand the

1473
00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:44,319
mechanisms see physics chemistry they're

1474
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,319
all about mechanism they have a model a

1475
00:52:49,829 --> 00:52:48,160
picture in their mind and this is what i

1476
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:49,839
talk about in the book about

1477
00:52:53,430 --> 00:52:51,760
we create in our mind a dynamical

1478
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:53,440
pattern that matches the pattern in

1479
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:55,839
reality that that dynamical pattern in

1480
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:57,599
our mind is the model

1481
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:59,359
right and you use math that you can

1482
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:00,559
solve that tells you how the thing

1483
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:04,000
changes in time that's the dynamics

1484
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:05,280
it works

1485
00:53:11,030 --> 00:53:09,440
that's this process that i'm describing

1486
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,040
and what is science of like we can

1487
00:53:15,589 --> 00:53:13,680
somehow tap power through these methods

1488
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:15,599
isn't that really

1489
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:19,040
the problem too it works right so we try

1490
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:21,040
and take these ideas that you're talking

1491
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:23,920
about and we try and overlay them with

1492
00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:25,920
our culture you called it a barbaric

1493
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:27,920
culture and i think that's probably

1494
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:29,040
accurate

1495
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:32,640
consumerism materialism are so ingrained

1496
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:36,240
in our culture and yet they work to a

1497
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:40,480
certain extent they work my iphone works

1498
00:53:43,589 --> 00:53:42,800
my skype here works

1499
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:43,599
my

1500
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:46,800
lifestyle in the west which is so far

1501
00:53:51,349 --> 00:53:48,319
superior to

1502
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:51,359
anyone else in the world basically works

1503
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:52,559
so

1504
00:53:59,190 --> 00:53:56,960
as well yeah see then it gets very

1505
00:54:00,790 --> 00:53:59,200
complicated you know what it does is it

1506
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:00,800
like this is the stuff you learn when

1507
00:54:06,069 --> 00:54:02,960
you start to really seriously study yoga

1508
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:06,079
is that it very quickly becomes personal

1509
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:08,640
right like i throughout

1510
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:11,359
what is science i cite a lot from a

1511
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:13,839
fellow swami krishnanda who i had just

1512
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:16,559
discovered like a year ago and he's

1513
00:54:20,390 --> 00:54:18,319
brilliant and

1514
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:20,400
right away he says that you know it

1515
00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:22,559
opens you up studying yoga opens you up

1516
00:54:26,549 --> 00:54:24,400
to true knowledge right and true

1517
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:26,559
knowledge is knowledge about yourself

1518
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:28,319
that's how you get to the inner world is

1519
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:29,040
by

1520
00:54:33,109 --> 00:54:30,960
going through the barriers that you call

1521
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:33,119
yourself your personality

1522
00:54:37,270 --> 00:54:35,680
and so it does start to turn inwards and

1523
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:37,280
you start to learn what it means to turn

1524
00:54:40,630 --> 00:54:38,960
inwards and when you turn inwards you're

1525
00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:40,640
obviously focusing your consciousness in

1526
00:54:44,790 --> 00:54:42,960
that direction and not outwards

1527
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:44,800
and it's it's a really weird logic i

1528
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:47,040
mean to kind of summarize it in a broad

1529
00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:50,000
way to put in a context the idea is if

1530
00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:51,599
you really want to understand the world

1531
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:53,040
outside of you you have to go to the

1532
00:54:57,589 --> 00:54:55,680
very center of yourself because there

1533
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:57,599
everything converges

1534
00:55:02,069 --> 00:55:00,000
right and then if you use your senses to

1535
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:02,079
look at the external world you get this

1536
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:03,760
like like i described in the book you're

1537
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:05,440
just bouncing off the surface of things

1538
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,599
and you never see their essence

1539
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:10,079
right this idea the contact of the thing

1540
00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:11,520
in itself it

1541
00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:13,760
it seems like a fantasy because you're

1542
00:55:17,750 --> 00:55:15,440
never going to get it

1543
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:17,760
by using your senses to interact with

1544
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:20,720
the outer world but if you go inside see

1545
00:55:24,790 --> 00:55:23,119
everything converges at the center

1546
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:24,800
and by following these methods you can

1547
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:26,000
go in

1548
00:55:30,069 --> 00:55:27,760
into the center where you can touch

1549
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:30,079
anything in all of infinity i mean

1550
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:32,400
that's why yoga has the form it does

1551
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:35,520
that's why the yogi doesn't care about

1552
00:55:38,790 --> 00:55:37,040
the external world at all because he

1553
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:38,800
knows it's futile it's like trying to

1554
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:40,640
grab sand or grab the wind you're not

1555
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:42,720
going to succeed at all it's it's it's

1556
00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:44,480
doomed to fail from the start they know

1557
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:45,839
that from the start and so they don't

1558
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:48,319
even waste time on that level of effort

1559
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:50,799
that's a hard sell though well yeah i do

1560
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:53,280
it's a hard sell even personally and and

1561
00:55:59,510 --> 00:55:56,880
i've had a personal interest in yoga for

1562
00:56:01,349 --> 00:55:59,520
for 25 years i wish i would have read

1563
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:01,359
your your books a long time ago i could

1564
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:03,359
have saved myself a lot of steps along

1565
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:04,319
the way

1566
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,160
and i don't want to sell anybody i'm not

1567
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:08,000
trying to sell anyone no i'm not i'm not

1568
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:10,000
suggesting you are but but my point is

1569
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:13,200
that that we we can't underestimate the

1570
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:16,400
extent to which we are enmeshed in

1571
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:19,599
that outer world and more and more every

1572
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:22,079
day and it can't come across as kind of

1573
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:25,520
glib to talk about the yogi who realizes

1574
00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:27,920
that the outer world is meaningless and

1575
00:56:31,829 --> 00:56:29,520
go within and it's all there it's like

1576
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:31,839
well wait a minute that's not how i

1577
00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:32,880
lived

1578
00:56:36,309 --> 00:56:34,799
my day-to-day that's not how i felt when

1579
00:56:39,349 --> 00:56:36,319
i sent my kids off to school for the

1580
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:39,359
first day of school it isn't relatable

1581
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:40,160
to

1582
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:44,720
in in my questions of who am i how do

1583
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:46,960
how do i get here what do i do

1584
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:48,799
and you notice that i'm very kind of low

1585
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:50,720
key in what is science on that front

1586
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:52,240
right because just for exactly the

1587
00:56:56,230 --> 00:56:54,000
reasons we're talking it's it's very

1588
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:56,240
hard to try to express this stuff into

1589
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:58,160
words and to express it so it's

1590
00:57:02,390 --> 00:56:59,760
meaningful to other people i mean it

1591
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:02,400
really is a person's personal journey to

1592
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:04,319
come to these insights

1593
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:06,079
because you know the truth is for a

1594
00:57:09,589 --> 00:57:08,000
western person to take an interest in

1595
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:09,599
yoga you have to have some degree of

1596
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,839
world weariness i don't i don't know how

1597
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:13,440
else to say it you have to just look at

1598
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,400
all this

1599
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:16,480
and you know how much fun can you have

1600
00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:19,280
how much glamour how much of this

1601
00:57:23,430 --> 00:57:21,200
this titillating excitement that the

1602
00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:23,440
western cultures provide you know if

1603
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:25,280
you're some power mad

1604
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:27,440
person you know i mean it's all of these

1605
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:29,200
things are not too different from any

1606
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:30,880
kind of addiction right they just keep

1607
00:57:34,950 --> 00:57:32,720
compounding compounding getting bigger

1608
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:34,960
bigger when where does it stop

1609
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:37,680
and you realize it doesn't stop it it's

1610
00:57:41,750 --> 00:57:39,920
limit you know it's limited by our form

1611
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:41,760
but it potentially

1612
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:44,559
could just go on to infinity right and

1613
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:46,720
at some point people have some

1614
00:57:50,390 --> 00:57:48,480
experience along these lines where they

1615
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:50,400
just realize that like there's got to be

1616
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:53,200
a totally like it's not working it's not

1617
00:57:55,910 --> 00:57:54,880
working and so you've got to go some

1618
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:55,920
other way

1619
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:58,000
you know in my case it actually has come

1620
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,240
about through just being an intellectual

1621
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:02,720
through studying ideas and contemplating

1622
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:04,720
all these different meanings

1623
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,799
and realizing that like

1624
00:58:10,549 --> 00:58:08,400
just holding you know it's kind of a

1625
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:10,559
very simple insight by just holding an

1626
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:12,319
idea in my mind and thinking that it

1627
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:14,400
means anything other than i'm holding an

1628
00:58:18,069 --> 00:58:16,160
idea in my mind

1629
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:18,079
that's that's what i realized right i

1630
00:58:21,190 --> 00:58:19,680
can't hold an idea in my mind and

1631
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:21,200
believe it's anything other than that

1632
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:23,040
now that's where my head is at like i

1633
00:58:25,829 --> 00:58:24,480
can't think the world is this or the

1634
00:58:27,910 --> 00:58:25,839
world is that or i am this or

1635
00:58:30,309 --> 00:58:27,920
consciousness is that or whatever it's

1636
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:30,319
just an idea in my mind

1637
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:33,280
i can't recreate my existence in my mind

1638
00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:36,480
i can't recreate existence in ideas

1639
00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:39,280
you can't step back into the illusion of

1640
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:40,880
well it's that well you know i

1641
00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:42,559
experience ideas as part of my

1642
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:45,359
experience and what i experience is

1643
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:47,359
experience i live i'm alive i have all

1644
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:48,799
these things that i go through day in

1645
00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:50,640
and day out like you and everybody else

1646
00:58:55,109 --> 00:58:51,520
and

1647
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:55,119
things about it but i don't believe

1648
00:58:59,829 --> 00:58:57,280
anything i think about it because i

1649
00:59:01,750 --> 00:58:59,839
don't know i really just don't know and

1650
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,760
so i keep studying and trying to learn

1651
00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:03,359
and you know and that's kind of what's

1652
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,559
led me into this yoga stuff is trying to

1653
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:08,640
you know continue to pursue that because

1654
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:11,040
like you know i may i have one statement

1655
00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:12,799
in the book just one sentence that you

1656
00:59:16,630 --> 00:59:15,200
know if you don't understand like what

1657
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:16,640
kant was saying

1658
00:59:19,990 --> 00:59:18,319
about his whole idea of transcendental

1659
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:20,000
idealism that

1660
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:22,640
what we perceive is in our minds

1661
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:25,200
and that we don't have access to the

1662
00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:26,480
essence of the things that we're

1663
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:28,400
perceiving

1664
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,160
through our minds

1665
00:59:34,230 --> 00:59:32,400
that's kind of the basis of of what i'm

1666
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:34,240
getting at here and

1667
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,599
there's more

1668
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,440
well that you know you exist you're a

1669
00:59:42,069 --> 00:59:39,920
real thing right you have some essence i

1670
00:59:45,030 --> 00:59:42,079
only see a superficial surface of it

1671
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:45,040
right i get certain cues clues stimuli

1672
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:47,839
it builds a certain idea in my mind what

1673
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:49,520
i know is that idea in my mind i don't

1674
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:51,200
know your essence at all

1675
00:59:55,589 --> 00:59:52,720
right i just know

1676
00:59:57,990 --> 00:59:55,599
the the kind of artifacts of what your

1677
00:59:58,950 --> 00:59:58,000
essence leaves in my mind that's what i

1678
01:00:01,109 --> 00:59:58,960
know

1679
01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:01,119
and so what are you really how would i

1680
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:02,559
get at that question

1681
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:04,240
right there's what am i going to do cut

1682
01:00:08,069 --> 01:00:06,000
you open and dissect you weigh your

1683
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:08,079
brain what how do you get at that

1684
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:10,000
question see and that's the weird thing

1685
01:00:14,069 --> 01:00:12,559
when you study yoga it's like no you go

1686
01:00:15,990 --> 01:00:14,079
inside yourself all the way to the

1687
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:16,000
center and not only are you there but

1688
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,079
everything else in infinity is there

1689
01:00:21,990 --> 01:00:20,160
that's that's the that's the the carrot

1690
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:22,000
they hold out in yoga

1691
01:00:25,349 --> 01:00:23,760
i and i mean it's it's completely

1692
01:00:27,190 --> 01:00:25,359
fantastic and unbelievable from a

1693
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:27,200
western viewpoint right and the only

1694
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:28,880
reason i can take it seriously is i've

1695
01:00:32,390 --> 01:00:30,880
gone through large swarths of the

1696
01:00:34,710 --> 01:00:32,400
western viewpoint

1697
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:34,720
and it all looks like the wizard of oz

1698
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:36,559
to me i pulled back the curtain right

1699
01:00:39,990 --> 01:00:38,319
it's just this little shriveled man

1700
01:00:44,150 --> 01:00:40,000
there's not any

1701
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:44,160
glamour it's all hypnotism and when you

1702
01:00:49,510 --> 01:00:46,319
see through that there's not really much

1703
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:49,520
there but the yogic tradition isn't

1704
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:51,599
perfect either i mean that's the other

1705
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,480
paradox is we can look at the culture we

1706
01:00:58,069 --> 01:00:56,559
can look at tradition we can look at

1707
01:01:00,309 --> 01:00:58,079
some of the

1708
01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:00,319
the great giants in it that have been

1709
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:02,640
exposed and this is having some of the

1710
01:01:07,910 --> 01:01:05,839
same human frailties that we all fall

1711
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:07,920
victim of and it's not just a recent

1712
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:11,040
phenomena that goes back for long long

1713
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:14,559
periods of time and it it it raises the

1714
01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:17,440
same kind of questions the other paradox

1715
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:19,119
i see that i can't overcome with the

1716
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:22,240
whole non-dual community including a lot

1717
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:25,040
of the yogic people is this desperation

1718
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:28,400
to achieve something along those lines

1719
01:01:33,109 --> 01:01:30,960
it's like well wait a minute i mean what

1720
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:33,119
how would that even make any sense you

1721
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:34,400
know i

1722
01:01:39,270 --> 01:01:36,640
the the old yogic thing is you know you

1723
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:39,280
must want enlightenment like a drowning

1724
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:42,400
man wants air what why i mean isn't that

1725
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:45,119
the the isn't that kind of contradictory

1726
01:01:49,510 --> 01:01:46,960
to the whole idea why would you want

1727
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:49,520
anything including enlightenment i mean

1728
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:52,079
the paradoxes don't stop and and western

1729
01:01:56,069 --> 01:01:54,160
thought i think the western yoga

1730
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:56,079
tradition has brought a lot of good

1731
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:57,839
insights and has held the mirror up in

1732
01:02:01,510 --> 01:01:59,920
some ways to the yoga traditions and

1733
01:02:03,030 --> 01:02:01,520
said hey look at your own here

1734
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:03,040
you know yeah

1735
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:04,559
that's a very cool point of view i agree

1736
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:07,200
with that 100 because and that's part of

1737
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:08,720
why i'm always like in this synthetic

1738
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:10,400
mode let's mix western and eastern

1739
01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:11,920
thinking we both have good things to

1740
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:13,839
offer and we both have a bunch of crap

1741
01:02:17,030 --> 01:02:15,359
too and the

1742
01:02:19,109 --> 01:02:17,040
the good things that one has to offer

1743
01:02:21,030 --> 01:02:19,119
helps to illuminate the crap that the

1744
01:02:22,710 --> 01:02:21,040
other one has to offer and

1745
01:02:25,510 --> 01:02:22,720
and i i agree too i don't want to

1746
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:25,520
glorify indian thought i mean

1747
01:02:29,270 --> 01:02:27,200
you know

1748
01:02:31,829 --> 01:02:29,280
whatever i might say about freedom

1749
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:31,839
and liberty at least we have that type

1750
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:33,760
of a society over here right and we

1751
01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:35,760
don't have a caste system right i'm not

1752
01:02:40,630 --> 01:02:37,760
knocking the caste system it has a logic

1753
01:02:43,109 --> 01:02:40,640
to it that is very compelling right but

1754
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:43,119
even india itself is a modern secular

1755
01:02:46,710 --> 01:02:45,200
state has made the caste system illegal

1756
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:46,720
right it's part of their constitution

1757
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:48,640
over there it's illegal well it winds up

1758
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:50,160
looking like a lot of our religious

1759
01:02:54,230 --> 01:02:51,920
traditions that we might be able to

1760
01:02:57,270 --> 01:02:54,240
trace back to some greater

1761
01:02:59,270 --> 01:02:57,280
wisdom but it's so contorted at this

1762
01:03:02,390 --> 01:02:59,280
point that it has the absolute opposite

1763
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:02,400
effect yeah exactly yeah yeah so you

1764
01:03:05,829 --> 01:03:03,839
know one of the

1765
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:05,839
chapter titles and what is science is

1766
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:07,920
the world is a network of unintelligible

1767
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:10,160
relationships right that's a swami

1768
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:12,319
christian on a quote and that's kind of

1769
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:13,680
what we're sitting here telling each

1770
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:14,720
other

1771
01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:16,240
you know it is and what can you do you

1772
01:03:20,230 --> 01:03:17,599
sit back and

1773
01:03:21,589 --> 01:03:20,240
what what stance do you take towards it

1774
01:03:23,750 --> 01:03:21,599
i don't know i'm not going to tell

1775
01:03:25,349 --> 01:03:23,760
anybody what to do you know what i'm

1776
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:25,359
saying sometimes i'm amused by it

1777
01:03:29,829 --> 01:03:27,440
sometimes it freaks me out

1778
01:03:30,630 --> 01:03:29,839
uh all i can figure is that like it's

1779
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,640
just

1780
01:03:35,990 --> 01:03:32,880
you know there's this outer exp

1781
01:03:38,309 --> 01:03:36,000
one way that the the yogis teach it is

1782
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,319
that the surface of life this outer rim

1783
01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:40,079
that we're experiencing of manif of

1784
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:42,720
manifold-ness of differentness

1785
01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:45,760
is it's like this chaotic bubbling storm

1786
01:03:49,029 --> 01:03:47,760
you know and it's just an eternal level

1787
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,039
of reality

1788
01:03:54,069 --> 01:03:51,839
you know maybe it lasts for 300 trillion

1789
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:54,079
years and then it ceases for 300

1790
01:03:57,270 --> 01:03:55,760
trillion years and it comes back for 300

1791
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:57,280
trillion whatever it's not like i'm

1792
01:03:59,430 --> 01:03:58,480
going to see it

1793
01:04:01,109 --> 01:03:59,440
but

1794
01:04:03,029 --> 01:04:01,119
you know that's about the level that

1795
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:03,039
i've come to look at it at just this

1796
01:04:07,829 --> 01:04:05,520
level of this that we're experiencing it

1797
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:07,839
is what it is it's good it's bad it's

1798
01:04:11,589 --> 01:04:10,480
just everything you know i mean probably

1799
01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:11,599
the best

1800
01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:14,319
image that i can find that captures it

1801
01:04:17,349 --> 01:04:15,920
is i don't know if you've ever read the

1802
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:17,359
bhagavad gita

1803
01:04:22,470 --> 01:04:19,760
just parts yeah there's this there's a

1804
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:22,480
one of the passages where our arjuna

1805
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:25,200
asks krishna to reveal his true self

1806
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:27,599
and i swear to god man that is like one

1807
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:29,039
of my favorite things i've ever read

1808
01:04:33,829 --> 01:04:30,799
because it's literally everything

1809
01:04:36,150 --> 01:04:33,839
literally good bad ugly beautiful just

1810
01:04:37,510 --> 01:04:36,160
everything and that that was really that

1811
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:37,520
passage i read that when i was in

1812
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:38,960
college and i'm like

1813
01:04:43,510 --> 01:04:41,920
what this is these people's idea of god

1814
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:43,520
i mean there was no god in the devil it

1815
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:45,440
was just all god everything was god

1816
01:04:50,069 --> 01:04:47,599
there was no distinction right it was

1817
01:04:51,109 --> 01:04:50,079
just everything good bad ugly

1818
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:51,119
all of it

1819
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:52,400
and that was really the thing that

1820
01:04:55,750 --> 01:04:53,920
hooked me into that way of thinking i'm

1821
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:55,760
like what who are these people and why

1822
01:04:59,029 --> 01:04:57,760
do they think like this

1823
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:59,039
and so

1824
01:05:02,069 --> 01:05:01,039
yeah so i don't you know

1825
01:05:04,470 --> 01:05:02,079
it's it's

1826
01:05:06,789 --> 01:05:04,480
what it's done to me is i don't

1827
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:06,799
there's no way in my human form that i'm

1828
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:08,720
gonna like really get a grasp on any of

1829
01:05:12,230 --> 01:05:10,319
this stuff and what i've learned again

1830
01:05:13,990 --> 01:05:12,240
is that that 10 000 hours of doing

1831
01:05:16,230 --> 01:05:14,000
science if you just apply yourself and

1832
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:16,240
keep focused on little specific things

1833
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:17,760
you can actually make accomplishments

1834
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:19,839
and get things done and it's a small

1835
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:21,440
it's a small price to pay in that

1836
01:05:23,990 --> 01:05:22,400
grander

1837
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:24,000
scheme of things that you just talked

1838
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:25,200
about as soon as you put it in the

1839
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:27,520
trillion-year perspective what's ten

1840
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:29,039
thousand hours

1841
01:05:33,910 --> 01:05:31,440
yeah so so where do you where do you go

1842
01:05:37,510 --> 01:05:33,920
from here don what's uh what's next for

1843
01:05:39,510 --> 01:05:37,520
you uh what are your interests both in

1844
01:05:41,589 --> 01:05:39,520
your paycheck life but probably more

1845
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:41,599
importantly for what we're talking about

1846
01:05:46,870 --> 01:05:43,440
where do you want to go with this

1847
01:05:48,150 --> 01:05:46,880
exploration of yoga and consciousness

1848
01:05:49,829 --> 01:05:48,160
well let's say with respect to the

1849
01:05:51,750 --> 01:05:49,839
paycheck life we'll have to we maybe

1850
01:05:53,109 --> 01:05:51,760
should do another talk about that

1851
01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:53,119
because it's very very interesting where

1852
01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:55,440
that's going and and that actually you

1853
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,880
mentioned at the very beginning about

1854
01:06:00,309 --> 01:05:58,720
the non-linear dynamics work that i'm

1855
01:06:02,390 --> 01:06:00,319
doing and believe it or not it was

1856
01:06:05,270 --> 01:06:02,400
completely conditioned by learning all

1857
01:06:08,230 --> 01:06:05,280
these eastern ideas right it's this idea

1858
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:08,240
that everything is dynamical patterns

1859
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:10,480
that you learn from studying yoga

1860
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:13,520
so if that's true well you know i study

1861
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:15,839
cell death right so why can't cell death

1862
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:18,720
be a dynamical pattern too right so the

1863
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:21,200
connection the the the very thought of

1864
01:06:25,109 --> 01:06:23,760
that came from studying these indian

1865
01:06:26,710 --> 01:06:25,119
ideas

1866
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:26,720
and so that that's all very interesting

1867
01:06:30,870 --> 01:06:29,039
i'm very excited about that and

1868
01:06:33,270 --> 01:06:30,880
i don't want to go off on it too much

1869
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,280
with regard to this other stuff

1870
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:35,200
i don't know it's just always i kind of

1871
01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:37,520
am like brownie in motion i don't have

1872
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:39,280
any direction i've never really had any

1873
01:06:42,630 --> 01:06:40,480
direction

1874
01:06:45,029 --> 01:06:42,640
i mean as i learned the yoga ideas they

1875
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:45,039
exert an influence they're kind of like

1876
01:06:48,549 --> 01:06:47,280
acid in a way they like corrode away all

1877
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:48,559
the crap

1878
01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:51,200
you know and so there's these basic

1879
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:54,240
ideas in yoga called yama and niyama

1880
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:57,599
and they're like the um

1881
01:07:01,270 --> 01:06:59,440
you know the very very like i compare it

1882
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:01,280
in the book to reading and writing right

1883
01:07:04,789 --> 01:07:02,799
you can't do science unless you know how

1884
01:07:07,589 --> 01:07:04,799
to read and write and you can't do yoga

1885
01:07:09,670 --> 01:07:07,599
unless you do yama niyama yep

1886
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:09,680
and so

1887
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:12,079
if anybody asks me do practice yoga i

1888
01:07:16,870 --> 01:07:14,559
can say yes because i just practice yama

1889
01:07:18,789 --> 01:07:16,880
and niyama and go over really just

1890
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:18,799
quickly what those are because again as

1891
01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:21,280
you allude to most of us spend our life

1892
01:07:26,390 --> 01:07:23,760
just trying to aspire to

1893
01:07:28,309 --> 01:07:26,400
some of the basics there but yeah yeah

1894
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:28,319
well i mean the idea like i say in the

1895
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:29,599
book it's kind of like the ten

1896
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:31,599
commandments but you know you don't do

1897
01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:32,960
it because you're going to go to hell

1898
01:07:36,870 --> 01:07:34,960
you do it because it's the logical

1899
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:36,880
necessity to move on to the deeper

1900
01:07:41,829 --> 01:07:39,680
stages and it's basically

1901
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:41,839
the idea of getting rid of all the

1902
01:07:46,549 --> 01:07:44,400
unnecessary stuff in your mind that

1903
01:07:48,950 --> 01:07:46,559
would block you from progressing further

1904
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:48,960
into yoga and developing those habits

1905
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:50,640
that will allow you

1906
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:52,559
to deal with things as they arise later

1907
01:07:57,270 --> 01:07:54,079
on even as you go into more advanced

1908
01:07:58,710 --> 01:07:57,280
stages so both yama and niyama have

1909
01:08:02,950 --> 01:07:58,720
several different

1910
01:08:04,789 --> 01:08:02,960
um aspects like um with for example yama

1911
01:08:07,829 --> 01:08:04,799
you're like supposed to tell the truth

1912
01:08:10,069 --> 01:08:07,839
truthfulness right yeah not harm things

1913
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:10,079
abstinence is one of them which a lot of

1914
01:08:13,029 --> 01:08:12,160
people in the west don't want to hear

1915
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:13,039
um

1916
01:08:16,789 --> 01:08:14,240
but you know

1917
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:16,799
the the one of the things way back early

1918
01:08:20,950 --> 01:08:18,640
on when i was in college when i first

1919
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,960
got exposed to the ideas of raja yoga

1920
01:08:24,789 --> 01:08:22,799
and patanjali's yoga

1921
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:24,799
was about just this one about

1922
01:08:29,030 --> 01:08:27,199
truthfulness because the the book i was

1923
01:08:30,789 --> 01:08:29,040
reading made the point how can you know

1924
01:08:33,590 --> 01:08:30,799
what is truth if you can't tell the

1925
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:33,600
truth and that has always stuck with me

1926
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:35,920
just unbelievably and it to this day is

1927
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:38,880
like a guiding light in my thinking and

1928
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:40,960
and it's not just like telling the truth

1929
01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:42,960
to somebody else where you might have a

1930
01:08:46,070 --> 01:08:44,400
lie that you're covering up something

1931
01:08:47,829 --> 01:08:46,080
bad you did it's not that it's like

1932
01:08:50,470 --> 01:08:47,839
telling the truth to yourself about deep

1933
01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:50,480
issues right am i delusional do when i

1934
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:52,400
believe these things is it

1935
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,880
why do i believe x does it make me feel

1936
01:08:58,870 --> 01:08:57,040
good is it does it make me feel more

1937
01:09:01,189 --> 01:08:58,880
important than somebody else you know

1938
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:01,199
i'm saying it's like that level of truth

1939
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:02,960
with yourself and it goes hand in hand

1940
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:05,199
with seeking the truth which is kind of

1941
01:09:08,709 --> 01:09:07,679
a hard thing but we all intuitively know

1942
01:09:11,349 --> 01:09:08,719
when we're

1943
01:09:13,189 --> 01:09:11,359
pushing back our own nonsense and

1944
01:09:15,189 --> 01:09:13,199
seeking a deeper truth i think that's

1945
01:09:17,669 --> 01:09:15,199
part right and so you know these are the

1946
01:09:19,510 --> 01:09:17,679
kind of things that um i find my as i

1947
01:09:22,229 --> 01:09:19,520
read the stuff it's just very natural

1948
01:09:24,070 --> 01:09:22,239
that you know you it makes you think and

1949
01:09:26,789 --> 01:09:24,080
reflect on these things and go oh man

1950
01:09:28,789 --> 01:09:26,799
wow i'm kind of stupid you know i better

1951
01:09:30,149 --> 01:09:28,799
i need to like clean up these different

1952
01:09:31,590 --> 01:09:30,159
parts you know you're right this whole

1953
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:31,600
idea of like going trying to become

1954
01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:33,279
enlightened and be infinite and all that

1955
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:35,279
stuff it makes noise i go go drop acid

1956
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:36,560
and spend the night doing it you're not

1957
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:39,839
going to want to do it all the time

1958
01:09:44,550 --> 01:09:42,000
that's not the point you know there's

1959
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:44,560
and even one of the core ideas in the

1960
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:47,120
the yoga sutras is that if that would

1961
01:09:50,309 --> 01:09:48,960
never come to pass anyways unless you

1962
01:09:52,550 --> 01:09:50,319
clean up your karma like what you

1963
01:09:54,149 --> 01:09:52,560
alluded to right after this life we we

1964
01:09:56,149 --> 01:09:54,159
make all these reverberations in the

1965
01:09:58,149 --> 01:09:56,159
universe it brings us back we keep

1966
01:10:00,709 --> 01:09:58,159
recycling in our lives

1967
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,719
until that stuff cleans up anyway right

1968
01:10:05,189 --> 01:10:02,159
and if there's some greater purpose to

1969
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:05,199
it or whatever you know i don't know but

1970
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:06,960
again this idea of karma i mean that

1971
01:10:10,709 --> 01:10:09,120
newton identified karma right that's

1972
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:10,719
newton's third law for every action

1973
01:10:14,870 --> 01:10:12,960
there's a reaction so it happens in the

1974
01:10:16,790 --> 01:10:14,880
most grossest forms of physical matter

1975
01:10:18,709 --> 01:10:16,800
and it happens all the way up through

1976
01:10:20,709 --> 01:10:18,719
the psychological and spiritual levels

1977
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:20,719
that we exist at

1978
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:22,400
and you know

1979
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:24,480
those are kind of the practical things

1980
01:10:28,470 --> 01:10:27,040
that that i focus on now

1981
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:28,480
take a minute and tell people what

1982
01:10:32,750 --> 01:10:30,880
they're going to find if they go to your

1983
01:10:34,950 --> 01:10:32,760
excellent website

1984
01:10:37,270 --> 01:10:34,960
d-o-n-d-e-g dot com

1985
01:10:39,110 --> 01:10:37,280
um all my ramblings i just put

1986
01:10:40,950 --> 01:10:39,120
everything up you know when again this

1987
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:40,960
kind of comes back to the early

1988
01:10:45,270 --> 01:10:42,880
influence of yoga i mean

1989
01:10:46,950 --> 01:10:45,280
somehow my karma is such that the stuff

1990
01:10:48,790 --> 01:10:46,960
i do for my paycheck i'm more than

1991
01:10:49,990 --> 01:10:48,800
satisfied with that and so all this

1992
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:50,000
other stuff

1993
01:10:54,070 --> 01:10:52,159
that i do it's just give it back to the

1994
01:10:55,350 --> 01:10:54,080
world right the world gave to me i give

1995
01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:55,360
back to the world that's kind of how i

1996
01:10:58,870 --> 01:10:56,640
look at this so

1997
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:58,880
you know early on where my ego drove me

1998
01:11:01,910 --> 01:11:00,480
a little bit i tried to sell some of my

1999
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:01,920
material and

2000
01:11:05,590 --> 01:11:04,480
let's see i was called um arrogant other

2001
01:11:07,750 --> 01:11:05,600
people didn't understand what i was

2002
01:11:09,030 --> 01:11:07,760
talking about so i was just like screw

2003
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:09,040
this and then boom there was the

2004
01:11:12,149 --> 01:11:10,320
internet and

2005
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:12,159
i made started making friends and

2006
01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:13,760
finding other people with these common

2007
01:11:17,270 --> 01:11:15,440
interests and

2008
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:17,280
you know i'm all for this spirit of just

2009
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:18,960
giving the information away it's it's

2010
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:20,239
kind of like a johnny appleseed

2011
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:22,960
mentality well it's really quite an

2012
01:11:27,830 --> 01:11:25,520
amazing body of work and we'll obviously

2013
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:27,840
have links to a lot of this stuff

2014
01:11:31,910 --> 01:11:30,400
in the show notes but i do encourage

2015
01:11:34,310 --> 01:11:31,920
everyone to go to the website check it

2016
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:34,320
out you'll find something there that'll

2017
01:11:38,950 --> 01:11:36,719
strain your brain in one way or another

2018
01:11:41,189 --> 01:11:38,960
it's just been great having you on the

2019
01:11:44,149 --> 01:11:41,199
phone again our guest has been

2020
01:11:46,870 --> 01:11:44,159
dr donald degrassia at from wayne state

2021
01:11:49,110 --> 01:11:46,880
university school of medicine and from

2022
01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:49,120
d-o-n-d-e-g

2023
01:11:52,470 --> 01:11:51,440
dot com don thanks again so much for

2024
01:11:53,990 --> 01:11:52,480
joining me

2025
01:11:55,510 --> 01:11:54,000
yeah this is this was great alex i

2026
01:11:57,030 --> 01:11:55,520
really appreciate it thank you very much

2027
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:57,040
for the opportunity

2028
01:12:01,270 --> 01:11:59,040
thanks again to dr degrassi for joining

2029
01:12:03,110 --> 01:12:01,280
me today on skeptico i guess i'd have

2030
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:03,120
one question to tee up from this

2031
01:12:07,189 --> 01:12:06,080
interview what should we make of

2032
01:12:11,910 --> 01:12:07,199
science

2033
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:11,920
think one of don's points that was

2034
01:12:16,310 --> 01:12:13,760
really fascinating

2035
01:12:19,110 --> 01:12:16,320
is that when he looks at the yogic

2036
01:12:21,430 --> 01:12:19,120
tradition and yogic philosophy he's not

2037
01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:21,440
looking at it through a spiritual lens

2038
01:12:26,310 --> 01:12:22,880
but i get the sense that he's looking at

2039
01:12:29,350 --> 01:12:26,320
it from a scientific lens and saying gee

2040
01:12:31,830 --> 01:12:29,360
have these folks discovered something in

2041
01:12:33,189 --> 01:12:31,840
a different way that we need to pay

2042
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:33,199
attention to

2043
01:12:37,270 --> 01:12:35,520
and i think that's such a blind spot for

2044
01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:37,280
us in the west

2045
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:39,120
that i'd like to tee that up as a

2046
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:42,800
question and that is do other cultures

2047
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:45,679
offer a science in the way that we think

2048
01:12:51,270 --> 01:12:48,960
about science a science that deserves

2049
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:51,280
our attention so that's the question i'd

2050
01:12:54,709 --> 01:12:52,719
love to hear your thoughts on that of

2051
01:12:59,350 --> 01:12:54,719
course the place to do it is through the

2052
01:13:00,390 --> 01:12:59,360
skeptico website at s-k-e-p-t-i-k-o

2053
01:13:01,750 --> 01:13:00,400
dot com

2054
01:13:04,709 --> 01:13:01,760
you can leave a message right there on

2055
01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:04,719
the comment section jump over the forum

2056
01:13:08,470 --> 01:13:06,480
or send me an email you can always send

2057
01:13:10,790 --> 01:13:08,480
me an email facebook

2058
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:10,800
not always super prompt on getting to

2059
01:13:14,229 --> 01:13:12,560
those depending on what's going on but i

2060
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:14,239
do try and eventually get to all of them

2061
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:15,360
so if that's the way you want to

2062
01:13:20,070 --> 01:13:18,159
communicate with me that's fine as well

2063
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:20,080
i have a number of interesting shows

2064
01:13:24,310 --> 01:13:22,320
coming up i have already recorded a

2065
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:24,320
bunch of shows i'm just in the process

2066
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:26,480
of getting those out i'm trying to stick

2067
01:13:31,030 --> 01:13:29,280
to my every other week schedule but i

2068
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:31,040
might have to increase that to get a

2069
01:13:35,590 --> 01:13:33,600
couple of additional little shows that i

2070
01:13:37,830 --> 01:13:35,600
want to get out here but we'll see how

2071
01:13:40,070 --> 01:13:37,840
all that comes now that i've wrapped up

2072
01:13:41,910 --> 01:13:40,080
my book i've been able to dive back into

2073
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:41,920
the forum and some of the comments on

2074
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:45,120
the website and i'm reminded of how much

2075
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:48,239
i enjoy connecting with you the folks

2076
01:13:52,390 --> 01:13:50,159
who listen to this show and are going

2077
01:13:54,790 --> 01:13:52,400
through this skeptico adventure with me

2078
01:13:57,510 --> 01:13:54,800
you're always in my thoughts and i love

2079
01:13:59,669 --> 01:13:57,520
hearing from you and connecting with you

2080
01:14:01,990 --> 01:13:59,679
it's one of the great gifts of this

2081
01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:02,000
thing we call the internet that i can

2082
01:14:05,910 --> 01:14:04,080
connect with people that i don't know

2083
01:14:07,750 --> 01:14:05,920
and then i can actually get to know them

2084
01:14:08,709 --> 01:14:07,760
and there's so many of you who i now

2085
01:14:10,550 --> 01:14:08,719
consider

2086
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:10,560
friends in the very real sense of the

2087
01:14:15,030 --> 01:14:13,199
word so that's a nice thing and i

2088
01:14:17,270 --> 01:14:15,040
certainly hope that if you do feel a

2089
01:14:20,070 --> 01:14:17,280
desire to reach out and connect with me

2090
01:14:21,910 --> 01:14:20,080
please do and i'll try my best to reach

2091
01:14:25,030 --> 01:14:21,920
back so then that's going to do it for